The Baseball Guru - ASSESSING TY COBB AS THE GREATEST ALL-AROUND PLAYER WHO EVER LIVES PART III

Was Cobb the greatest all-around baseball player who ever lived? PART I - PART II

ASSESSING TY COBB AS THE GREATEST ALL-AROUND PLAYER WHO EVER LIVED - PART III

1945 Sporting News	1926-27 Yankees		1917-20 White Sox
Survey, Greatest Team	Connie Mack,1950		1919 Ed Barrow,1951
Ever, 140 votes total	Fred Lieb,1977		1919 Ty Cobb, 1941
86 - Yanks(1927-28) - 61%	George Sisler,1956		1917 Eddie Collins, 1950
19 - White Sox(1917-20) - 13%	Wilbert Robinson,		1919 Ward Morehouse,1943
11 - Athletics(1929-31) - 7%	John Kieran		1919-20 Frank Ellerbe,1985
7 - Athletics(1910-14) - 5%	Babe Ruth		1919 Ed Walsh, 1940
7 - Yanks(1936-42) - 5%	Herb Pennock		1917 Pants Rowlands,1959
3 - Cubs(1906-08) - 2%	Glen Wright		1919 Warren Brown, 1946
1 - Giants(1921-22)	Ethan Allen
	Buck Jordan		1910-14 Athletics
	Wally Berger		1914's A's Wambsganss,1985
1929-31 Athletics	Buck Leonard		B. Shawkey,1977
1929 Dykes, 1967	Spud Davis		T. Speaker,1930
1929 Riggs Stevenson,1986	Glen Wright
1929-31 Rick Ferrell, 1985	Charlie Gehringer		late 1930's Yankees
1929-31 Mark Koenig, 1985	Whitlow Wyatt		Joe McCarthy
1929-31 Doc Cramer, 1966	Billy Rogell		1938-42, George Case,1985
1929-31 Whitlow Wyatt,1985	George Pipgras		1938-40's, Spud Chandler,1985

Walter Johnson vs. AL Batting Average Champions & others
Ty Cobb .370 (1907-1914, 36 for 131 = .275), (1915-1926 =.435)
Tris Speaker .340
George Sisler .334
Babe Ruth .324 (2 home runs up to 1920, 10 altogether)
Joe Jackson .270 (1911-13 =.346, 1914-20 =.256)
Nap Lajoie .252
Harry Heilmann .249
Heinie Manush .234
Eddie Collins .225
Frank Baker .385 (1910-13), (1914-23) = .207
Sam Crawford .408 (1907-12)
Lou Gehrig .500 (1925-28), 10 for 20, 4 home runs, 1 double)

Nap Lajoie vs. pitchers		Honus Wagner vs. pitchers
Joe McGinnity, 23 for 45 = .511		Christy Mathewson, .324, 86 games, 327 AB, 106 hits,
Clark Griffith, 36 for 88 = .409		Cy Young, .343
Cy Young, 78 for 206 = .379		Amos Rusie, .524
Eddie Plank, 49 for 136 = .360		George Wiltse, .368
Amos Rusie, 9 for 25 = .360		Nap Rucker, .356
Rube Waddell, 49 for 140 = .350		Kid Nichols, .352
Ed Cicotte, 47 for 138 = .341
Jack Combs, 33 for 97 = .340		It was said that Babe Ruth cried when he left the Polo Grounds,
Kid Nichols, 19 for 56 = .339		with it's 256' right field foul line. Well, Ty loved it too. Ty's record there:
Ed Walsh, 53 for 166 =.319		Year	games	hits	Batting Ave.
Joe Wood, 14 for 45 =.311		1913	11	14	0.341
Jack Chesbro, 40 for 129 = .310		1914	8	13	0.433
Bill Dineen, 63 for 206 = .306		1915	12	19	0.421
Walter Johnson, 40 for 137 = .292		1916	12	21	0.421
Chief Bender, 37 for 136 = .272		1917	-	19	0.432
Babe Ruth, 5 for 27 = .185		1918	-	10	0.303
Ernie Shore, 6 for 39 = .154

Ed Cicotte vs. Babe Ruth (11 for 53 = .210, with 7 singles, 4 doubles and no homers, 1915-1920)
Warren Spahn vs. Stan Musial (107 for 329 = .322BA & .584SA, 54 BB, 29 SO, 192 Total bases, .416 on-base in 107 games, 1946-63)
Spahn vs. Musial included 61 runs, 23 doubles, 6 triples, 17 homers,

Ty Cobb was timed going down to first many times, but was never known to break, 3.2. Mickey Mantle's best was 3.1 from the left side of the plate.

In 1921, Maurice Archdeacon timed 13.4 in circling the bases, while 10 yrs. later, Evar Swanson timed 13.3. in circling the bases. Ty Cobb's best was 13.5.

At a long-distance baseball throwing contest in Oct.,1872, John Hatfield of Mutual club, won the contest with a heave of 133 yrds, 1 foot, 7.7 inches. He was followed by Andy Leonard
of Boston club(119 yds. 1 ft. 10 inches), George Wright of Boston club(117 yrds. 1 ft. 1 inch), Bill Boyd of Mutual club(115 yrds. 1 ft. 7 inches), Wes Fisler of Athletics club(112 yrds. 6 inches),
Adrian C. Anson of Athletics club(110 yds. 6 inches)

Ned Crane threw a baseball 117 yards(351 feet) in a contest at Worcester, MA in 1879.

At Cincinnati baseball grounds on Sunday, Oct. 9,1910, Sheldon Lajeune of the Evansville baseball Club, threw a baseball 426 feet, 9.5 inches. He had preceded this throw with heaves of
385' 3", 383' 4", both throws against the wind. He then asked if he could throw in the opposite direction. This was granted and he threw 401' 4.5", he then warmed his arm up and then
uncorked a mighty heave of 426' 9.5". Previously he had thrown 399' 10.75" on September 11, 1908 at the Cincinnati grounds.

Joe Jackson threw a baseball 132 yards (396'9") on September 27, 1917, at Fenway Park, Boston, Mass., in a contest, defeating Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Babe Ruth. It was at a benefit game for Tim Murnane's widow. Duffy Lewis of the
Red Sox and Clarence (Tillie) Walker of the Phil. Athletics tied for second with tosses of 384'6".

Prominent Baseball Figures list their all-time players in order of greatness.
Harry Salsinger,	2/15/1950	Sp. News	Cobb	Wagner	Ruth
Bozeman Bulger,	5/26/1928	Sat.Eve.P.	Cobb	Wagner
John B. Sheridan, St. Louis sp. wr. (1880's-1929)	2/28/1929	Sp. News	Cobb	Wagner	Bresnahan	Ruth	Speaker
Dan Howley (Ty's coach,1919, '21-22)	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Cobb	Wagner
Gabby Street	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Cobb	Wagner	Collins	F. Parent	Chase
Kid Gleason	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Cobb	Wagner
Walter Johnson	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Cobb	Wagner	Jackson	Ruth	Collins	Speaker
Harry Grayson			Cobb	Wagner
Eddie Collins (AL 2B, Man, Coach, Exec, '06-51)	5/26/1950		Cobb	Ruth	Wagner	Sisler
John Drebinger	4/7/1932		Cobb,'61	Ruth
Rube Bressler	8/26/1964	tapes	Cobb	Ruth
Dan Daniel, NYC sp. wr., 1910-60's			Cobb,'61	Ruth,'48	Wagner
Fred Lieb	1950		Cobb,'70	Ruth	Wagner
Burt Shotten	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Cobb	Lajoie	C. Klein	Wagner	Ruth
Connie Mack, AL Man.('01-50), NL catcher(1886-96)	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Cobb	Collins	Lajoie	Simmons	Ruth	Cochrane
Wilbert Robinson	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Cobb	Keeler	Ruth	Wagner	Ferguson
Francis C. Richter,	1925	Sp. News	Cobb	Ewing	Wagner	Anson
John J. McGraw	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Wagner	Cobb	Keeler	Simmons	Terry
Ed Barrow (BR manager18-19,Y GM,'21-34)	2-28-29;1951	Sp. News	Wagner	Cobb	Lajoie	Ruth	Speaker
Jimmy Burke	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Wagner	Cobb	Lajoie	Collins	Hornsby
Bill McKechnie	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Wagner	Cobb	Speaker	Lajoie	Hornsby	Ruth
Sam Crawford	Jul.,1961		Wagner	Cobb
Branch Rickey	1965	Doc.of BB	Wagner	Cobb	Sisler
John Gruber	2/28/1929	Sp. News	Wagner	Cobb
Bill McGoogan			Wagner	Cobb
Max Carey	Jan.,Feb.,'57	BBD	Wagner	E. Collins	Sisler	Cobb	Speaker
Johnny Evers	Apr.'30	BBMag	Wagner	Ruth	Cobb
Ed Roush	Nov.1,1969	BBDigest	Wagner	(Cobb,Ruth)
Lou Gehrig	1939		Wagner	(Cobb,Ruth)			1937,BBM
Frankie Frisch	Nov.1,1969	BBDigest	(Cobb,Ruth)
Grantland Rice	1943		Ruth,'48	Cobb	Wagner
Bucky Harris	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Ruth	Cobb	Sisler	Simmons	Speaker
Joe McCarthy	Jul.,1931	Phil.Pub.L	Ruth	Cobb	Wagner	Collins	Lajoie
Billy Wambsgnass	Oct.1,'85	Sp. News	Ruth	Cobb	(Speaker,Jackson)
Earl Coombs	4/16/1942	Sp. News	Ruth	Cobb	Gehrig
Waite Hoyt	1942	Sp. News	Ruth,'42	Cobb,Nov.,'31
Nap Lajoie	Feb.,1956		(Wagner,Cobb,Ruth)
Jimmy Austin	3/23/1965	tapes	(Wagner,Cobb,Ruth)


Some SABR members Greatest Players			1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25
Daniel Ginsberg	1/23/2001	letter	Cobb	Ruth	Mays	Williams	Wagner	Aaron	Glen Wright	Hornsby	Lajoie	Foxx	Gehrig	Greenberg	Clemente	DiMaggio	Musial	A. Rodriquez	B. Leonard	Cochrane	Henderson	Ripken	R. Thomas	Griffey, Jr.	Speaker	J. Evers	J. Jackson
Bill Burgess	10/8/2003		Cobb	Wagner	Ewing	Sisler	Charleston	Mays	Speaker	E. Collins	J.Jackson	Pop Lloyd	Hornsby	Ruth	J.Robinson	Lajoie	Gehrig	Anson	Dihigo	Aaron	Bonds	Clemente	W. Keeler	K. Kelly	Schmidt	Cochrane	Griffey,Jr.
Charles Alexander	1997	letter	Ruth	Cobb	Gehrig	Aaron	Hornsby	Clemente	Speaker	Musial	Wagner	Lajoie	J. Jackson	Gwynn
Furman Bisher	10/10/1999	letter	Ruth	Cobb	Williams	Mays	Musial	Aaron	J. Jackson	Hornsby	Mantle	Clemente	Lajoie	Wagner
Marty Appel	10/27/1999	letter	Ruth	Cobb	Gehrig	Mays	DiMaggio	Williams	Aaron	Hornsby	Musial	Wagner	Clemente	F. Robinson
Bob McConnell	9/14/1999	phone	Ruth	Cobb	Gehrig	Hornsby	Wagner	Sisler	Mays	Aaron	Speaker	Musial
Herman L. Masin	Dec.22,2002	letter	Ruth	Gehrig	Cobb	Foxx	Hornsby	Greenberg	DiMaggio	Speaker	Williams	Mays	Aaron	Wagner	Musial	F. Robinson	Schmidt	Simmons	Sisler	Mantle	Heilmann	Medwick	Clemente
Glenn Dickey	Jun.,1999	phone	Ruth	Mays	Cobb	Wagner	Williams	incompleted	incompleted	Musial	Aaron	Gehrig
Pete Palmer	Nov.4, 1997	letter	Ruth	Lajoie	Mays	Cobb	Aaron	Speaker	Williams	Wagner	Hornsby	Schmidt	Henderson	Mantle
Donald Honig	Nov.8,1999	letter	Ruth	DiMaggio	Wagner	Mays	Cobb	Griffey, Jr.
Bill James	2001	abstract	Ruth	Wagner	Mays	Charleston	Cobb	Mantle	T. Williams	J. Gibson	Musial	Speaker	Aaron	DiMaggio	Gehrig	Morgan	Bonds	E. Collins	Schmidt	Hornsby	F. Robinson	T. Stearns	Henderson	Pop Lloyds	Ott	Foxx	Brett
Lloyd Johnson	10/24/1999	letter	Ruth	O. Charleston	Mays	Wagner	Schmidt	Cobb	Speaker	Griffey, Jr.	Rose	John McGraw	Rube Foster	Foxx
James Lindberg	3/24/2000	phone	Ruth	Wagner	Lajoie	Sisler	DiMaggio	Mays	Aaron	Musial	Gehringer	Cobb	Ripken	Gehrig
Kevin Fura	10/25/1999	letter	Wagner	Ruth	Gehrig	Mays	Aaron	Musial	Mantle	Speaker	DiMaggio	Morgan	Schmidt	Cobb


Ratio For Striking out ( AB divided by Strikeouts) example: In 1913, Ty Cobb struck out every 13.8 times at bat.
Year	Cobb	Jackson	Speaker	Collins	Sisler	Hornsby	Z. Wheat
1913	13.8	20.3	23.6	14.4			11.8
1914	15.6	13.3	22.6	16.9			10.6
1915	13.0	20.0	39.0	19.2	10.1		12.5
1916	13.8	23.6	27.3	15.1	15.6	7.8	11.5
1917	17.9	21.5	37.3	35.2	28.3	15.3	20.1
1918	20.0	65.0	52.3	25.3	26.5	9.6	24.0
1919	22.5	51.6	41.1	19.1	25.5	12.4	19.8
1920	15.2	40.7	42.4	31.6	33.2	11.7	27.7
1921	26.6		42.1	47.8	21.5	12.3	29.8
1922	21.9		38.7	37.3	41.8	12.4	27.2
1923	39.7		38.2	63.1	*	14.6	29.0
1924	34.7		37.3	34.7	21.9	16.7	31.4
1925	34.5		35.7	53.1	27.0	12.9	28.0
1926	116.5		35.9	46.8	20.4	13.5	29.3
1927	40.8		65.3	25.1	40.9	14.9	49.4
1928	22.0		38.2		31.7	11.8
1929					37.0	9.2
1930					28.7	*
1931					25.2	15.5

Times Led the League	Cobb	Wagner	Hornsby	Ruth	Williams	Gehrig	Mantle	DiMaggio	Speaker	Kiner	Bonds
BA	12	8	7	1	6	1	1	2	0	0
Hits	8	2	4	0	0	1	0	0	2	0
Runs	5	2	5	8	6	4	6	1	0	1	1
RBI	4	5	4	6	4	5	1	2	0	1	1
Doubles	3	7	4	0	2	2	0	0	8	0
Triples	4	3	1	0	0	1	1	1	0	0
HR	1	0	2	12	4	3	4	2	1	7	1
Total Bases	6	6	7	6	6	4	3	3	1	1
Stolen Bases	6	5	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Slugging Pct.	8	6	9	13	8	2	4	2	1	3	3
On Base Pct.	6	4	8	10	12	5	3	0	4	1	4
Production	11	6	11	13	8	3	8	2	1	2
Total Player Rating	2	9	8	11	7	2	8	2	5	2

Times Led the League	Mays	Aaron	Lajoie	Foxx	Greenberg	Schmidt	Yastrzemski	Simmons	Musial	Killebrew	Clemente
BA	1	2	2	2	0	0	3	2	7	0	4
Hits	0	2	4	0	0	0	2	2	6	0	2
Runs	2	3	1	1	1	1	3	1	5	0
RBI	0	4	3	3	4	4	1	1	2	3
Doubles	0	4	5	0	2	0	3	0	8	0
Triples	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	5	0	1
HR	4	4	1	4	4	8	1	0	0	6
Total Bases	3	8	4	3	2	3	0	2	6	0
Stolen Bases	0	0	0	0	0	0		0	0	0
Slugging Pct.	5	4	4	5	1	5	3	0	6	1
On Base Pct.	2	0	2	3	0	3	5	0	6	1
Production	5	4	3	3	0	6	3	0	7	0
Total Player Rating	9	3	9	4	0	7	5	0	4	0




Ty Cobb	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	12	8	3	4	1	5	4	6	7	8	6
2nd in league	3	3	4	2	2	2	2	2	7	3	1	1
3rd	1	3	1	1	2	2	1	2		3	2
4th	2			1		1		1		1	3	1
5th	1			1		2	1		1			1
6th	2		2

Honus Wagner	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	8	2	7	3	0	2	5	7	4	6	5
2nd in league	2	2	1	3	1	2	2	1	1	3	0
3rd		5	3	2		2	2	4	2	2	2
4th	2	3			1	2	3	2	1	1		1
5th	1	1	1		2	1	1	2	2

Rogers Hornsby	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	8	4	4	2	2	7	3	7	9	9	0	3
2nd in league	2	1	1	1	2	1	1	2	1	1	0	1
3rd	1	1	1	1	3		2		1	1	0
4th	1	3	4		1	2				1	0	2
5th					5					1	0

Babe Ruth	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	1		1		12	8	6	6	9	13		11
2nd in league	2		1		2	1	2	3	2	1		1
3rd	2		1		1			2	1	1		1
4th	1	3					3		2
5th	1					1

Lou Gehrig	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	1	1	1	4	2	4	4	2	4	2		3
2nd in league	2	3			4	2	4	3	2	4		2
3rd	3			1	3	3	2	2	3	1		3
4th		1			1	2	2			3		2
5th	2	1			1			1	1			1

Ted Williams	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	6		2		4	6	4	6	12	8		8
2nd in league	2	1	2		4	1	2			1		1
3rd	1	2			2	1	1	4		1		2
4th	1	1	2			1	1			2
5th		4					1					1

Mickey Mantle	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	1	1		1	4	6	1	3	3	4		5
2nd in league	1		1		3	2		3	4	5		3
3rd	1				2	1	1	2	1	2		2
4th	2	2		1				1	2		2
5th					1		2

Willie Mays	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	1	1		3	4	2		3	2	5	4	1
2nd in league	3	1	1	1	1	5	2	5	1	3	1
3rd	2	1	1	1	3	3	3	5	2	2		2
4th					1		2	1	1	2	1	1
5th	1		1		1		2	1	4	5	2

Hank Aaron	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	2	2	4		4	3	4	8		4
2nd in league		3	2	2	4	1		2	2	5	1	1
3rd		1	1		1	4	2	2	3	4		2
4th	3		1	2	2	2	2	2	1	1	2	2
5th	4				2	1	1		2	1

Joe DiMaggio	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	2	0	0	1	2	1	2	3	0	2		0
2nd in league	0	1	1	0	0	2	3	2	0	5		0
3rd	2	1	0	4	1	0	3	1	2	0		0
4th	0	2	1	0	5	0		1	1	3		0
5th	0	0	0	0	2	2	1	2	0	0		0

Tris Speaker	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	1	2	8		1	0	0	1	4	1
2nd in league	2	1	3	1	2	4	1	3	3	2		1
3rd	7	2	1	1		2	1	2	4	4	1
4th	2	4			2	2	2	3	3	4	1	4
5th	1	2						1	1	2	3	2

Nap Lajoie	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league	3	4	5		1	1	3	4	2	4
2nd in league	3		4	1		1	1	2	2	3
3rd	1	1	1		1		2		1	2
4th	1	1	1			1	1	2	1
5th		1					1		1

Mike Schmidt	BA	Hits	2B	3B	HR	Runs	RBI	TB	OBA	SLG	SB	BB
Led league
2nd in league
3rd
4th
5th

Zach Wheat
Joe Jackson
Eddie Collins
Barry Bonds
Billy Williams
Wade Boggs
Tony Gwynn
Jimmie Foxx
Ralph Kiner
Hank Greenberg
Al Simmons
Harmon Killebrew

2003 season not included.	2003 season not included.
Relative SA.	Relative OBA (min. 5,000 AB)
+76% Babe Ruth	+37% Babe Ruth
+65% Ted Williams	+33% Billy Hamilton
+56% Lou Gehrig	+33% Dan Brouthers
+52% Hank Greenberg	+31% Barry Bonds**
+52% Rogers Hornsby	+31% Ty Cobb
+52% Jimmie Foxx	+30% Rogers Hornsby
+52% Joe Jackson	+30% Mickey Mantle
+50% Barry Bonds	+30% Roy Thomas
+49% Johnny Mize	+29% Joe Jackson
+48% Joe DiMaggio	+28% Tris Speaker (12th all-time)
+47% Mickey Mantle (11th all-time)	+27% Lou Gehrig (13th)
+45% Ty Cobb (12th)	+27% Stan Musial (16th)
+45% Hank Aaron (14th)	+22% Honus Wagner (37th)
+45% Stan Musial (15th)	+20% Willie Mays (54th)
+45% Willie Mays (16th)	+17% Hank Aaron (90th)
	+15% Joe DiMaggio (129th)
+40% Tris Speaker (24th)
+38% Honus Wagner (32nd)