Lloyd or Johnson?

John B Holway

Scott Simkus raised the question on his excellent website, Baseball Insider. His conclusion: Johnson. My comment:

No living man or woman saw either one play. We have only imperfect numbers to help us answer the question. All the data are imperfect, but some may be less imperfect than others. I spent 25-30 years wading through the thickets. Scott, Gary Ashwill, Phil Dixon, d others are also taking up the search and adding invaluably to our knowledge..

It seems apparent that I have the highest totals so far, though they are younger and may well surpass me in years to come. And another researcher, still unborn, may surpass all of us. But it is also clear that they have some games that I haven't found, and vise versa. Scott and I hope some day to sit down and compare our data, game by game.

All we can do is continue the patient, slogging hunt for more numbers. The "final" numbers, if we ever reach them, may not be known for another half century or more.

Johnson played many years in the 19th century, when his numbers so far have been impossible to find, than in the 20h century, when Lloyd played. By the time Johnson did emerge from the mists into the "modern" era, he was 29 - 12 years older than Lloyd and, we can surmise, past his peak.

Lloyd played for 14 years in the dead ball era. Unlike Cobb, he did not do very well. Luckily he played a decade in the lively ball era, and although he was on the downhill slope of his athletic life, the 20s were vitamins to his career.

There were really two Lloyds - the dead ball Lloyd and the lively ball Lloyd.

Johnson of course didn't play with the lively ball.

Cuba was an arena that both men played in a century or more ago I regard it as roughly equal to the Negro Leagues. Unlike Negro League games, statistics were carefully kept. For five decades the handbook, Quien Es Quien, was the best source. But Jorge Figueredo double-checked the record and claimed to have found errors. He published his own stats in Cuban Baseball (McFarland 2003), which he has kindly allowed me to use.

Gary is also laboring to cut through the thickets and come up with alternat numbers. As a general rule, Jorge's totals are higher, but again, there anomalies, e.g. Gary may have higher extra base hits in some seasons. I haven't seen Gary's stats, except those published last week by Scott. When he publishes his, they will greatly enrich our knowledge. Some day, I'm sure, these differences will be reconciled.

The best way to try to answer the question of Lloyd vs Johnson is to lay out the most complete numbers so far available and invite all who want to join in the voyage of discovery, by finding new numbers or correcting old ones, to jump in.

We need all the help we can get.

Lloyd

Negro League........ 3770..... 1208..... .320

Cuba........................1500.... 505...... .357

White Big Leaguers... 171........43........259

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Totals.....................5441.....1756........323

Johnson

Negro League........... 323.........95........294

Cuba.........................606.......193........315

White Big Leaguers..... 58.........20........345

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Totals........................987.......308........312